Apparently we can't criticize the government.
Forums › General Discussion › Apparently we can't criticize the government.-
One last time to clarify: Keyser, the nurse, thinks his taxes are too high and we should reduce government spending. Already enacted cuts to government spending via Medicare are affecting his professional life negatively and just bumming him out in general. Keyser's brilliant solution is to withhold treatment from folks he has deemed unworthy. When pressed for clarification, Keyser cleverly says "I would call it assisted suicide".
I am proud to say to anyone who will listen that this is cruel, inhumane, borderline criminal and frankly un-American. It is an embarrassing failure of imagination on his part, so much so that it leads me to question Keyser's respect for human life, being that it happens to be essential in his chosen career to do so. So beat and burn your strawmen to your heart's content. I stand by every single word I've said. Pathologically blaming the weakest among us for all our problems in a society as prosperous as our's is a pathetic cop out and all who do so should be ashamed.
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😡ҝعყʂعཞ😈Տȫƶع😡 wrote:
So a death panel. Lol.@Addi. I could care less who makes the decision but a medical board similar to the organ transplant would probably work best. Thanks. Good morning all
How about removing the cuts (which Is on the table btw) and cutting what really binds us? Offensive military spending.
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I just don't find much credibility to your stand against Keyser when you drop it so quickly even for a "hypothetical." Hypotheticals reflect reality. And as such can stand as good additions to the argument. You either care for ppl all the time and everywhere or you don't. You can't turn it off and go about your day. There's a lot more to what you have called the "public trust" than this one isolated argument over nursing. So exactly where is it that we can hop over the line and start saying things like, "Geez these ppl are making things too difficult." Is it in the parking lot of the hospital? Maybe the circle drive? I think if you honestly look you won't find that line anywhere. Hypothetical or not.
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😡ҝعყʂعཞ😈Տöƶع😡 wrote:
This is quite possibly the most convoluted strawman argument I've ever seen. I'm impressed. All over a little piece of rhetorical hyperbole taken out of context. Have you ever heard someone say in jest "I want to kill my boss/my boyfriend/these customers"? Did you run screaming into the street with your hair on fire then too, looking for the nearest policeman because you feared for their lives? It's okay if you'd like to remain fixated on what I said, don't get me wrong. Any distraction to keep you from taking a good look at what Keyser said, right? I know it is an ugly thing to face.I just don't find much credibility to your stand against Keyser when you drop it so quickly even for a "hypothetical." Hypotheticals reflect reality. And as such can stand as good additions to the argument. You either care for ppl all the time and everywhere or you don't. You can't turn it off and go about your day. ✂Hypothetical or not.
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You may claim any sort of argument you like from your analytical thinking class. I took the class, too. I haven't actually disagreed with you anywhere except on one point. You believe there is a higher standard for treating people if you work in particular positions. I don't. People are inherently worth treating well or they aren't. It's black and white and has nothing to do with the government or where you run into them in the public sector. So if they matter to you at all. They have to matter to you everywhere and in every occupation. And you should argue from that position if you wish to sound credible. Because you start to sound a little shaky when you throw out hypotheticals in which you wouldn't care. Having written PR items, I'd have axed that entire hypothetical "thing" because of the message it sent. And I'd have been right.
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★Λddi★ wrote:
So cut the military who protects us from terrorist attacks? They are already running short but yeah, let's cut more from them.😡ҝعყʂعཞ😈Տȫƶع😡 wrote:
So a death panel. Lol.@Addi. I could care less who makes the decision but a medical board similar to the organ transplant would probably work best. Thanks. Good morning all
How about removing the cuts (which Is on the table btw) and cutting what really binds us? Offensive military spending.
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Your also accusing me of some of the same types of responses that you've had to Keyser the 1st's posts. So if the shoe fits... In a real time hospital setting people who are compliant don't get kidneys/lungs/etc. because others (including noncompliant patients) get them first. That's a long standing problem for donor organisation. And it's hard to watch people die while others are back for another when they trashed the first one they got. Some lung patients are even willing to take lungs from people who are/have been chronic smokers (warts and all) because its better than what they're dealing with. They'll risk cancer because they're so far back in the line. So yes, the feeling of righteous indignity isn't a rare one amongst the medical community. Hell, there's even hospital slang for repeat patients that are noncompliant. I'm not referring to Keyser at all. It's a bit of an epidemic amongst medicine and it does need to be dealt with.
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And, frankly, I'd want a frustrated nurse who delved into my son's records to try and dig up something that maybe someone missed. They're the best kind. Sensitive? Sometimes. Irritated? Sometimes. But they've made more critical catches--sometimes life saving--that the ones that made no effort to dig deep, educate me on things, and try to prevent a readmit. After all, I didn't really want to readmit my kid again. They have good eyes and great hunches and have the balls to wake up a doc at 2am when no one else did. Got to see all sides of the story before passing judgement.
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😡ҝعყʂعཞ😈Տȫƶع😡 wrote:
Offensive, attack.★Λddi★ wrote:
So cut the military who protects us from terrorist attacks? They are already running short but yeah, let's cut more from them.😡ҝعყʂعཞ😈Տȫƶع😡 wrote:
So a death panel. Lol.@Addi. I could care less who makes the decision but a medical board similar to the organ transplant would probably work best. Thanks. Good morning all
How about removing the cuts (which Is on the table btw) and cutting what really binds us? Offensive military spending.
Defensive, protect.
Wow, a nurse who supports an outrageous military bill as opposed to an outrageous medicare bill. Hmmm.... -
★fnord★ wrote:
👆👆👆👏👏👏👏👏👏👆👆👆Dude, why are you even in the healthcare industry? A person who has made some poor health choices should be put out on the street to die so your taxes will be lower? I'm beginning to see why your last thread was deleted.
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Silent Arcani wrote:
Don't ya think he'd have been fired by now if he wasn't good at his job? They don't really let nurses who are poor at their job just run roughshod over patients. He's also stated that in addition to standard care, he does patient education. We're adults here. Not everyone says what's on their mind while at work. Surely you don't. Or do you...★fnord★ wrote:
👆👆👆👏👏👏👏👏👏👆👆👆Dude, why are you even in the healthcare industry? A person who has made some poor health choices should be put out on the street to die so your taxes will be lower? I'm beginning to see why your last thread was deleted.
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The Red Queen wrote:
Yup but the middle class pays 75% and the rich pay the rest u poor bastards playing on ur iPhone could chip inFederal taxes are lower now than they've ever been, or at least since WWII.
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Besides Saelo, no one has said what kind of work they do. I'm betting that Mayhem, and Silent aren't medical professionals. I know Addi is a photographer and fnord is a small business owner. Mayhem is fire alarm sales & service. What about silent?
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@Mayhem
Apples to oranges there. The military actually protects your right to have this debate whether they support it or not. I would hope you support them in that. Especially soldiers abroad who are working jobs that could earn them excellent salaries in the private sector, but below poverty wages (espeially their families) in service. I also wouldn't presume to discount their activities unless I was on the ground or in the know myself. There are many areas in the US budget where cuts are needed, but FAR more areas where monies could simply be allocated or spent better if adequate thought was given. Passing on line items simply because we've spent money there before isn't the way to approach things. No one with any budget anywhere (except congress) does that. They look at what they actually have and start looking at what they need and prioritise from there. -
Cutting spending alone won't fix military or healthcare demands no matter how many times you do it. Altering standards of care might. Changing military organisation and use of technological advances might. In the end, though, someone has to bring up the hard questions like Keyser did. "What can we do? This is obviously not working." Frankly, few want to do the heavy lifting on that. Sit through a medical ethics class. You'd be shocked at what gets debated there. Things that make this thread look like a walk in the park. And there are doctors and nurses on both sides of every fence trying to work it out.
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States military budget is more than education, healthcare, and SS combined. Canada's military budget is smaller than other three sectors. Again, this is why Canada is a more educated, healthy, employed, and peaceful nation than yours. It's not just Canada, it's the rest of the developed world. I don't have to pick apart your view, you just have to look around. Why is Canadas population healthier in your opinion?
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★MΛΥΗΞΜ★ wrote:
I'm not arguing with you on Canada. I was merely talking about the US. There are a lot of things I like about Canadian government choices--that I really like and respect. That includes their medical practices. They made some very difficult changes to get there and they've paid off in the long run. It serves as a good example. But it wasn't merely spending cuts and reallocation. It was also policy/practice changes across the board. I don't know that Canada is the most educated country on the planet, but I agree that they're doing many things we'd like to see in a healthy US gov't but are afraid to say so. IMO, access to reliable health care from day one creates a healthier populace. Here, you're up a creek from birth without insurance. And that usually means you neglect regular well checks that would catch more serious problems earlier on. That alone will give you a sicker population.✂
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electt me presudebt. i wilk free uou all
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Which in effect leads to stupid patients who have never learned to care for their health and instead keep cramming supersized 5 dollar meals into their fat face. The people aren't stupid, they are a reflection of a stupid society. Problem solved. Get rid of the stupid and you get rid of recurring problems, now I hope you don't mind spending a couple tax dollars on reforming the public school system. It's okay I'm only talking a couple f-16's and a few cruise missiles. Wow look at that we saved a couple innocent lives, a couple million dollars, and were setting up our children to not be raised stupid! Now that's a step in the right direction!
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★MΛΥΗΞΜ★ wrote:
Don't buy the people aren't stupid line. That's like saying there is not stupid question....a line of bullshit.Which in effect leads to stupid patients who have never learned to care for their health and instead keep cramming supersized 5 dollar meals into their fat face. The people aren't stupid, they are a reflection of a stupid society. Problem solved. Get rid of the stupid and you get rid of recurring problems, now I hope you don't mind spending a couple tax dollars on reforming the public school system. It's okay I'm only talking a couple f-16's and a few cruise missiles. Wow look at that we saved a couple innocent lives, a couple million dollars, and were setting up our children to not be raised stupid! Now that's a step in the right direction!
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Awfully broad brush you're painting with there, Mayhem. It won't be "fixed" with money only. There are no automatic band-aids for these problems. That's where the idea of changing practices comes in. Throwing money at the problem has, so far, gotten no one anywhere..
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Looks like accross the board there are some commen grounds . The more you make the more you pay is how all tax brackets are set up and the larger the city the higher the taxes and that ain't no joke . 2010 I bonused 23k which I paid in taxes was 35% just on the bonused incentive . Than I paid again for my total gross income ( including the bonus earned in that gross total ) because of the higher tax bracket :( I work hard for my Don points an if the Gov was a turf well we know what most if us would do huh :) !!
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Let's stop goofing off here and get down to some brass tacks:
The proposal on the table is to eliminate the demand placed on non-profit hospital resources by non-compliant patients nationwide, specifically by refusing hospital treatment to non-compliant patients and/or revoking non-compliant patient's Medicare benefits. Do I have that right?
Step 1: Congress must repeal or modify the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 which requires all non-profit hospitals to provide emergency treatment and stabilization and labor delivery to all human beings regardless of their ability to pay. Some similar state laws may also need to be repealed. Court battles over the constitutionality of such a move will likely be prolonged and costly. -
Step 2: Congress must appoint a panel of experts (bioethicists need not apply) tasked with establishing official minimum requirements for persons to qualify as 'Compliant'. Persons with a confirmed ability to pay are exempted from these qualifications. Persons receiving Medicare or any government assistance are automatically subject to review. Failure to qualify as 'compliant' is grounds for automatic lifetime denial of all Medicare/Medicaid benefits.
Some possible disqualifying factors:
1) A history of non-compliance with medical directives. May include: Failure to obtain and refill medications within 20 days of caregiver directed date. Failure to meaningfully alter nutritional habits within 60 days of directed date. Failure to stop using drugs, alcohol or stop smoking within 48 hours of directed time. -
2) Any illness brought on by a person's long term gross neglect of their personal health reflects an innate lack of survival instinct and will result in instant disqualification. May include: complications related to obesity or poor nutrition, alcohol and drug related illnesses, smoking related illnesses.
3) Drug and/or alcohol addiction
4) Criminal history?
5) Illegal immigrant status?
*An appeals process will be established to consider mitigating circumstances such as old age, being a minor child, mental deficiencies, physical or mental disabilities, being a sole parent or guardian to a minor child, being a sole caregiver to a disabled adult; or ability to demonstrate a general usefulness to society and worthiness to receive hospital treatment (bring backing documentation to your hearing) -
Step 3: Implementation. Persons on Medicare who are given non-compliant status will be notified within 30 days. Every non-profit hospital will establish an 'Office of Patient Compliance' responsible for ensuring all patients on hospital grounds qualify as 'compliant' as defined previously. This office will be responsible for reviewing and confirming patient worthiness at all hospital entrances, in addition to forcibly removing patients who lose qualification as compliant at any point during their hospital stay. State run non-profit prison hospitals will be permanently closed and all prisoners will be denied medical treatment due to automatic non-compliance and general unworthiness of treatment.
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Just a rough outline of the details of what many here believe to be a debatable solution to lower our public health care expenses in specific and tax burden in general. Feel free to provide your own input and considerations. I am tentatively calling this proposal Keyser's SOTF (survival of the fittest) Health Care Directive.
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swamper wrote:
And what are you playing on?The Red Queen wrote:
Yup but the middle class pays 75% and the rich pay the rest u poor bastards playing on ur iPhone could chip inFederal taxes are lower now than they've ever been, or at least since WWII.
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😡ҝعყʂعཞ😈Տöƶع😡 wrote:
Please show me specifically where I said or implied what you are accusing me of. The tollbooth operator was obviously simply venting in confidence and meant to harm no one. If pressed for clarification he would say he was obviously joking. Keyser on the other hand, while also venting, has repeatedly expressed here and via PM a SERIOUS desire for some of his patients (among others he deems unworthy) to LITERALLY die from lack of treatment. When pressed for clarification he only digs in deeper. This I do find troubling and worth pursuing despite your childish equivocations. Would you care to elaborate on your comment that "People are INHERENTLY worth treating well or they aren't."? That's an odd thing for someone of such moral character and certitude to say.✂You believe there is a higher standard for treating people if you work in particular positions. I don't. People are inherently worth treating well or they aren't. ✂
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★fnord★ wrote:
You do know that EMTALA applies to all hospitals, right? Why should for profit be excluded from the fun?Let's stop goofing off here and get down to some brass tacks:
The proposal on the table is to eliminate the demand placed on non-profit hospital resources by non-compliant patients nationwide, specifically by refusing hospital treatment to non-compliant patients and/or revoking non-compliant patient's Medicare benefits. Do I have that right?
Step 1: Congress must repeal or modify the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 which requires all non-profit hospitals to provide emergency treatment and stabilization and labor delivery to all human beings regardless of their ability to pay. Some similar state laws may also need to be repealed. Court battles over the constitutionality of such a move will likely be prolonged and costly.
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