The Great Obamacare Flood of 2014
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★fnord★ wrote:
Wow. I didn't realize you spoke for every Canadian.It's so strange that people of whatever nationality, while visiting one of the best healthcare facilities in the world, might express that their previous health care experiences paled in comparison. From that you can easily make the leap that all Canadian health care pales in comparison to that in the states. Wait, no you can't. That's not logic, it's anecdotal evidence. The real evidence indicates that Canadians pay far less, have better outcomes and live longer. They are continually ranked in the top ten in health care outcomes while the US is near the bottoms of the first world nations. Do you have evidence that shows otherwise? Other that your gut feeling? Bringing up other first world countries in defense of the US health care system may not be the best way to make your case, FYI. Not one of them would trade places with our bloated profit-driven system.
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In reference to what mystery said about socialized medicine. Have you guys ever thought about using the resources you have in this game? The multitudes of adults from Canada and the UK that play this game that can tell you the propoganda mill you know as fact is actually factless? They wait for some specialty stuff. But guess what? So do we lol. I'm sure it's not all perfect...some countries better or worse. But then each country also has something a little different going on from the next. One thing I do know is that we rank at the bottom of healthcare cost and outcome. Easily fact checked from various reputable non political sources.
Also, mystery, if your state wasn't obstructing Medicaid, your cost probably wouldn't be going up. I'm not sure what you expect when your state is refusing their own residents tax money coming back in that subsides the cost.
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See the fiasco at the VA, Walter Reid in particular, for a preview of our coming single payer system.
Next time you are out visiting a consumer of the VA ask them about their experience. Ask them how it is to rarely see the same Dr. twice. Ask them about the frustration of dealing with a buracrarcy that only answers to itself.
I'm not saying our current system is perfect, but I prefer it to that. At least as it is now, or was, if I'm not pleased with my current insurance provider I could go to another. Someday, unfortunately that won't be an option.
Oh ya, if you think the VA is bad, read up about the neglect and abuse that has occurred in the UK over the last couple years.
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✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote: Wow. I didn't realize you spoke for every Canadian.
No more than you claim to. Tell me, what kinds of things did they say to you? Was it like "I'd trade places with you yanks in a second, I'm so jealous of your nonexistent national health care system" or "I'd rather pay out of pocket $50,000 to get a knee replacement this weekend than wait 18 weeks to get it for free." Did you take note of just the cross section of 40,000 entering for health reasons and ignore the other 40,000,000 border crossing that weren't? That's what I'm getting at, your personal experience means nothing to me. It's not scientific. I tried to present you with some information that was arrived at scientifically, information we could perhaps agree on as a starting point for a debate, but I have the feeling that's not your intention here. -
Addi, I'm not sure what propaganda mill you're referring to. The stuff I've seen over the years comes from people's stories about their health. They weren't talking about health care systems & had no agenda with it. Waiting was simply mentioned as part of the story. I'd love to hear from the people here that live in countries with socialized medicine. I'd be interested to learn what they think of it.
Why are you saying "my state" as though it's some kind of accusation? It's not like I control Texas.
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✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
Your news about Walter Reid is almost a decade out of date, but I'll play along. Why do those VA patients put up with it? You'd think they'd just pay their own way if it was such a headache. Like them, you rugged individualists will always be able to purchase supplemental insurance or self-insure, no one will ever take that away from you. It's about making health care affordable and accessible, not forcing everyone into the same care regardless of their means. Nowhere in the world is it like that. Shit, I'd argue for you to do a lifetime opt out of national health care if I thought I could stomach watching you die in the street when you were struck with circumstances beyond your control. You know, what the rest of us call reality.See the fiasco at the VA, Walter Reid in particular, for a preview of our coming single payer system.
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★fnord★ wrote:
Because they have service conected disabilities. The nation owes them, they should never have to pay.✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
You know, what the rest of us call reality.See the fiasco at the VA, Walter Reid in particular, for a preview of our coming single payer system.
✂️Of course you will never understand a debt owed for service, as opposed to an entitlement, because you have never served, just reaped the benefit of those who have.
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Oops I only read one mystery comment before posting. Don't mind how far I'm behind the convo. Carry on. :P
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✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
That's pretty bold coming from someone who used them as a prop to make a petty political point. I understand a lot more about my duty to my fellow man than you do, that much is clear. You're just another in a long line of broken souls trying desperately to come up with a moral and rational justification for your own selfishness. A fool's errand.★fnord★ wrote:
Because they have service conected disabilities. The nation owes them, they should never have to pay.✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
You know, what the rest of us call reality.See the fiasco at the VA, Walter Reid in particular, for a preview of our coming single payer system.
✂️Of course you will never understand a debt owed for service, as opposed to an entitlement, because you have never served, just reaped the benefit of those who have.
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✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
It's not our system that sucks. It's the waiting period to see a doctor or get surgery. Going south of the border and paying out of pocket for an imidiate surgery is better for some. Though the number of us that go south is far less then the number of Americans that go over seas for cheaper surgeries. I'm fine with paying what I pay for taxes/health care. It's the waiting times that I don't like. But the gov is working on that. Our healthcare system is fantastic in my eyes.★fnord★ wrote:
I'm not making anything up.✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
I dunno, I wonder why 900,000 Americans travel overseas for medical care every year?I wonder why thousands of Canadians seek medical treatment in the United Sates every year?
http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427
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★Λddi★ wrote:
Ah well, I think I'm done posting anyway. These threads tend to get far too heated & personal for my taste. I usually try to avoid them. I really would be interested to hear from people in the UK, Canda, etc though. Feel free to pm me if you don't want to post.Oops I only read one mystery comment before posting. Don't mind how far I'm behind the convo. Carry on. :P
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@ Seeker, what are your waiting times? If you are sick, how long do you have to wait to see your doctor? Can you see any doctor you want?
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Can't remember where I heard this but I found it intreguing. Isn't the main problem with the US health care system (prior to obamacare) the fact that there was no competition for buying medical stuff (scalpels, medicine, hip replacements etc) meaning the insurance providers always bought the most expensive (even though cheaper ones were the exact same) which caused the patients to pay more? And there for costs just kept rising. Whereas in Canada, our gov doesn't buy the most expensive. We buy best quality at reasonable prices. Keeping costs down for everyone. There by keeping our taxes down. The providers of medical stuff has to fight each other by giving better lower prices to get the contracts to provide us with their product.
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Mystery wrote:
I go and ask them about it. You know half the Stars and Capo are Canadian. I just pm them individually and ask them questions when the moment strikes me. But that is anecdotal of course. It's amazing how they just don't have to worry about it. It's not on their list of financial stresses like it is for us - at least the bottom 90% of us. And from what I've heard most think we are absolutely insane for fighting to keep our own selves shackled to this so-called for profit healthcare that's somehow become inclusive with our income.Addi✂️
More importantly I fact check statistics. Emotions have no part in the truth in numbers across the 1st world. And we simply do not hack it. Just because we are innovators in no way means the masses have access to that innovation.
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Mystery wrote:
I went into my local hospital a few years back when I froze my ears solid (lol stupid winter and stupid me) I went in pretty late at night. I had to sit there for around 2 hours. But there were many people there for stupid stuff (kinda like mine haha) twisted ankle, soar throat, tiny cut. Which caused massive backup. Plus doctor shortage didn't help either.@ Seeker, what are your waiting times? If you are sick, how long do you have to wait to see your doctor? Can you see any doctor you want?
I just got a family doctor again after being without for 4-5 years. I didn't try to find one since my last one till a month ago. I got an appointment the day after I phoned to find a doctor.We can go to any doctor that will see us. Some do walkins, some do not.
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@ mystery. The waiting time is more a major factor when dealing with specialists. I have a birth defect in my spine and have suffered with chronic back pain since I was 5. I could get X-rays, MRI's and tests done quickly. But to see a specialist could sometimes take 3 months to over a year. Last time I waited I had to wai 17 months. By the time the appontment came (was going to discuss possible surgery) I had changed my mind. Surgery on spines isn't all that great, and with my luck I'd end up paralyzed at best. Though the past year my back has gotten really bad. Surgery has crept back into my mind. Not looking forward to seeing doctors about it though lol.
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〓 S E E K E R 〓 wrote:
Yes, we have many oligopolies in this country. More than people recognize. From meds to cell phones to cable companies.Can't remember where I heard this but I found it intreguing. Isn't the main problem with the US health care system (prior to obamacare) the fact that there was no competition for buying medical stuff (scalpels, medicine, hip replacements etc) meaning the insurance providers always bought the most expensive (even though cheaper ones were the exact same) which caused the patients to pay more? And there for costs just kept rising. Whereas in Canada, our gov doesn't buy the most expensive. We buy best quality at reasonable prices. Keeping costs down for everyone. There by keeping our taxes down. The providers of medical stuff has to fight each other by giving better lower prices to get the contracts to provide us with their product.
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Though I'd rather wait a year or two to get surgery on my spine. Then pay thousands upon thousands and possibly end up bankrupt and paralyzed. From what I've had to use of our healthcare system..... I love it. Going to see a doctor, or get minor surgeries and just walk out and drive away is nice. Just wish I could do that at a dentist too lol.
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〓 S E E K E R 〓 wrote:
Part of the problem is the networks. I work in insurance and there are so many hospitals that charge what they want because we need them in the network.Can't remember where I heard this but I found it intreguing. Isn't the main problem with the US health care system (prior to obamacare) the fact that there was no competition for buying medical stuff (scalpels, medicine, hip replacements etc) meaning the insurance providers always bought the most expensive (even though cheaper ones were the exact same) which caused the patients to pay more? And there for costs just kept rising. Whereas in Canada, our gov doesn't buy the most expensive. We buy best quality at reasonable prices. Keeping costs down for everyone. There by keeping our taxes down. The providers of medical stuff has to fight each other by giving better lower prices to get the contracts to provide us with their product.
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〓 S E E K E R 〓 wrote:
It hasn't changed. Apparently the ACA has done nothing to address these anti-capitalistic practices:Can't remember where I heard this but I found it intreguing. Isn't the main problem with the US health care system (prior to obamacare) the fact that there was no competition for buying medical stuff (scalpels, medicine, hip replacements etc) meaning the insurance providers always bought the most expensive (even though cheaper ones were the exact same) which caused the patients to pay more?
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2010/july/07/ft-price-fixing-kickbacks-medical-supply-business.aspx
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@ Mystery. Waiting times for family doctors I'd say would go from imidiate-possibly two weeks depending on the severity of the issue. I'm one of those people that don't see doctors unless it's life threatining lol. I had chest pains all day everyday for 2 months before I was forced to go see my doctor lol. I pullout my own ingrown toenails (lol love doing it myself) I get severe pain in both my wrists but I won't go to the doctor. Why? I dunno, I just don't think I need to haha. I hate seeing people waste out doctors time and my money on stupid crap they could fix themselves. A simple tylonal, or cold medication and problem solved. But so many people run to their doctor or emergency room at the hospital them cry waiting times suck. Well they are the reason they suck haha.
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〓 S E E K E R 〓 wrote:
So true. We have the exact same issues here. Of course if your brave enough to go to the ER, you'll likely wait the entire day to be seen. And also takes a couple weeks to get into family doctor in the city at least.@ Mystery. Waiting times for family doctors I'd say would go from imidiate-possibly two weeks depending on the severity of the issue. I'm one of those people that don't see doctors unless it's life threatining lol. I had chest pains all day everyday for 2 months before I was forced to go see my doctor lol. I pullout my own ingrown toenails (lol love doing it myself) I get severe pain in both my wrists but I won't go to the doctor. Why? I dunno, I just don't think I need to haha. I hate seeing people waste out doctors time and my money on stupid crap they could fix themselves. A simple tylonal, or cold ma.
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★fnord★ wrote:
If those sorts of things were fixed everyone's costs wouldn't be so high. But instead of people trying to find out why things are the way they are. They just cry and say fix it, yet provide no possible solution, or don't research why it's so bad. In most if not all situations. It's money that drives them. Someone has to make money somewhere. Even if it means many die because of it. Just now the insurance providers can't make their massive profits off of denying coverage due to "pre existing conditions" really? I don't know how that system was allowed to run in the first place lol.〓 S E E K E R 〓 wrote:
It hasn't changed. Apparently the ACA has done nothing to address these anti-capitalistic practices:http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2010/july/07/ft-price-fixing-kickbacks-medical-supply-business.aspx
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✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
We won our freedom in 1783. Those we owe for their services are long past dead. What keeps us free now is each individual's ability to vote people in and out of office, a democratic republic.★fnord★ wrote:
Because they have service conected disabilities. The nation owes them, they should never have to pay.✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
You know, what the rest of us call reality..
✂️Of course you will never understand a debt owed for service, as opposed to an entitlement, because you have never served, just reaped the benefit of those who have.
What an asinine thing for you to say, let alone presumptive. We all serve in multitudes of ways. The military is not a solitary component of our society. Not even close, sometimes we survive in spite of the military industrial complex.
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〓 S E E K E R 〓 wrote:
The usual way, It happened incrementally. So gradually that people assume it's always been this way and defend it out of nostalgia lol. It's the ultimate cautionary tale against allowing industry lobbys to write their own legislation.★fnord★ wrote:
If those sorts of things were fixed everyone's costs wouldn't be so high. ✂️They just cry and say fix it, yet provide no possible solution, or don't research why it's so bad. In most if not all situations. It's money that drives them. Someone has to make money somewhere. Even if it means many die because of it. Just now the insurance providers can't make their massive profits off of denying coverage due to "pre existing conditions" really? I don't know how that system was allowed to run in the first place lol.http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2010/july/07/ft-price-fixing-kickbacks-medical-supply-business.aspx
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@Seeker
Every single time it comes back to an emotional argument of "freedom" and "boot straps". Don't ask me to explain that. It is just generations of conditioning from monied interests. If you break it down it holds no logical value. I certainly don't feel free. I went a few years without insurance. 9 migraine pills would cost me $150 dollars. Now that I have insurance I get my meds on the nose every month. I Break them in half instead of taking a whole migraine pill to conserve them. I literally hoard them because I'm afraid at any moment I could lose my job then in turn lose my insurance that's linked to it and lose my ability to leave a dark room for 3 days. I'm not actually in danger of losing my job that is also linked to my insurance anymore than the next person is. But those years without it while I was working full time and going to college full time and not being able to afford basic preventative care effects your psyche forever. -
Cont...That's just a teeny tiny example of what the super majority of the country deals with. My issue is minor compared to most. Healthcare is the #1 stress evoker amongst those that aren't privileged.
And yes, Jake, we are all entitled to healthcare given we pay for it through our hard earned taxes for single payer. Why wouldn't we be? What classes one life more important than another? Money? And, what in Gods name makes you think charity can solve all our social woes? Is it because of how well it worked pre-FDR? Who funds our charities every time we have an economic collapse?
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★Λddi★ wrote:
I guess there hasn't been a threat to our country since 1783. I guess Washington didn't burn in the war of 1812.✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
We won our freedom in 1783. Those we owe for their services are long past dead. What keeps us free now is each individual's ability to vote people in and out of office, a democratic republic.★fnord★ wrote:
✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
.
✂️I suppose Germany and Japan would have been content conquering Europe and Asia.
Oh, and never mind the Soviet threat. Life under Stalin and his ilk, was real peachy. Never mind the Gulags, your health care would have paid for.
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✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote: ✂️
Which of those wars did you spill blood in that gave you the authority to beat people over the head with the service of all the armed forces? You know when they say "The Few, The Proud", they mean 'proud' as in honorable service, not 'proud' as in boastful and condescending about your service as a clumsy rhetorical device. The true heroes are the people that sacrificed so very much for this country that they would prefer not to be reminded of it, let alone brag about it on the internet in a weak attempt to belittle others. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that's not you.
I guess there hasn't been a threat to our country since 1783. I guess Washington didn't burn in the war of 1812.I suppose Germany and Japan would have been content conquering Europe and Asia.
Oh, and never mind the Soviet threat. Life under Stalin and his ilk, was real peachy. Never mind the Gulags, your health care would have paid for.
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