The Great Obamacare Flood of 2014
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⌖🔥ཧ़ཀंེབ།༨ཛყ🔥⌖ wrote: What's the point of the "debt ceiling" if they keep raising it.
The weird thing is, nobody knows and what's weirder is that there's no way to find out. Obama has erased all information about it from the internet. Googling 'debt ceiling history' yields no results. Many believe that Obama invented the debt ceiling when he secretly took over the congress back in early 2009. What is know is that he has been more reckless with his spending than any human being in history. He bought the world's most expensive dog and he and his wife take vacations in fleets of solid gold stretch Bugattis costing trillions of dollars. Rumor has it that he has an Olympic swimming pool filled with diamonds that he does the backstroke in while laughing maniacally at what suckers the American people are for appointing him King of America for Life. We're ruined, how could we be so foolish? You conservatives warned us, I'm so sorry we didn't listen. -
@fnord. If you want to help somebody with their medical expenses there's a ton if options out there that don't include half of it going to people who don't deserve it, that don't include government (mis)management of it. If all the charities etc are a distasteful option to you, you can always just walk into your local hospital and pay somebody's bill. In that scenario you can choose who to help based upon your own thoughts and impressions. It's your money after all. For instance you don't have to help out, say a Fox News contributor or a Bush flunky. Or you could and feel not only magnanimous but also be proud of the fact that you can rise above the fray to help those you don't like. Free choice is cool like that.
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Or you could decide that since I'm not giving enough, that I'm not thoughtful enough about the welfare of others, that I'm a greedy person with no concern for anything other than profit, or I'm just too stupid to make a quality decision and support making me give as you see fit. That's your choice too and I support your right to make that choice though I completely disagree with your assessment of me and my decision making ability.
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Guys, this was a really good idea. You guys haven't pointed out the good in this. Before, companies offering healthcare could decline you if you had a certain disease/illness/condition. So say you applied for healthcare to some company, let's call it Health. If you out on your application that you have Hepatitis B and Type 2 Diabetes, Health could reject you because you had those illnesses. Now they can't. Also, this new healthcare is for people BELOW the poverty line, because before they were afraid to go into hospitals, since most people below the poverty line are illegal immigrants. Now, they don't go into the hospital until it is really serious, then it costs over 100,000 dollars. They don't have that money. Then, they use tax payer's money. OUR MONEY. This was a great idea! They just didn't follow through.
Stay in school kids, this is what we learned about in Government and Economics. -
Big Jake wrote:
I don't recall saying anything about you or your decision making ability. The federal government can do things on a scale and at margins that no private charity can, due mostly to their vast leverage and purchasing power. They also already have the infrastructure in place to means test applicants to ensure that waste, fraud and abuse is kept to a minimum. If you do a little research, you'll find that welfare abuse and overhead in Federal programs is far less than any private charity. Not to mention that all the charities in the US put together could not even come close to doing all the good that the federal government does. They never have, that's why federal programs exist...out of necessity. I know these facts run contrary to everything you think you know about welfare, but it doesn't make it any less true.✂️I completely disagree with your assessment of me and my decision making ability.
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I have to ask, Jake...are you against the government helping people in general, or just helping those that you don't think are worthy of assistance? The armed forces assist people in defending their lives and property. Some people take advantage of that by sailing into a dangerous storm or extending their assets into foreign or dangerous lands that we have to defend. Those people should be able to take personal responsibility and do that for themselves, right? The justice system gives people a way to assert their rights and enforce their contracts. Some people use it more than others and some even abuse it. Again, the government should stay out of our lives and let us settle our own legal disputes, right? If there is any consistency in your stance on government involvement in our lives then you should be arguing that we abolish central government all together.
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You frame the argument at extremes which makes debate impossible without a 20 page position paper to answer all questions about scope and stance of the debaters. I disagree with the notion that the federal government is the best answer for ALL problems that naturally occur in a free society. Human nature is the source of our problems. The top down solutions provided by the government only manage those problems. The better way to address inequality between humans is from the bottom up. It's slower and more work but its results last.
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How does a bottom up solution to marriage inequality work? How about a bottom up solution to gender-based wage inequality? I'd love to hear how slavery, the ultimate inequality, could have been ended with a bottom up solution. For that matter, where is the bottom up solution to housing and job discrimination that exists to this day? Institutional problems require institutional solutions, and they are never perfect ones. You are letting the perfect be the enemy if the good. Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine and many other great thinkers argued for top down solutions to reduce income inequality and poverty. The idea of federal welfare programs aren't some recent liberal invention, only the right wing think tank opposition to them is. I personally question their motives, maybe you should as well.
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I would assert that a utopian society or socialism in its pure form would be the best possible system for human beings to live under. However I do not believe that it could be possible and in that system anything short of perfection yields results that are unacceptable to me. The system we have in our country while vastly imperfect is still the best system to produce gains both tangible and intangible in the human condition.
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To say that because the government is the best source to manage defense of our country therefore must be the best way to manage healthcare ignores the great differences between the needs and norms of the two.
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Of course I applaud that Lincoln ended slavery in 1863. However it was the shaping of attitudes over the next 150 years (with a continued changing still needed) that effectively ended it. As you well know the institution of slavery didnt end in 1863 or even 1953. It was an abominable institution but the racism of Jim Crow laws was equally abominable as is the continued demeaning of a people group based on the color of their skin. As a Texan, I will allow that my opinion of that has been influenced by generational changes in thought and that change will endure with the lessons I teach my own children.
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Big Jake wrote:
What were you saying about arguing extremes? I never mentioned socialism. I'm talking about a system in which the government covers the shortfalls that capitalism creates, not an abolishment of capitalism. If you want capitalism to continue, you should be arguing for the government lessening it's negative impacts, not against them. If people could feel the full effect of true unregulated capitalism they would be repulsed. The only thing saving us from that ugly truth IS the federal government and it's nasty little programs that help those capitalism has no use for anymore.I would assert that a utopian society or socialism in its pure form would be the best possible system for human beings to live under. ✂️The system we have in our country while vastly imperfect is still the best system to produce gains both tangible and intangible in the human condition.
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Again though just because a series of government actions were needed to address the ending of slavery doesn't mean that it's the best way to address healthcare. Frankly I don't feel the two issues are even in the same stratosphere.
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Big Jake wrote:
Not really. They are both in the business of preserving American lives. Neither of them are profitable enterprises, yet they both are apparently worth vast public investment for the greater good of society in the form of medical research grants and subsidies. They are both equally essential to the long term survival of our way of life. They both are engaged in constant combat with dangerous enemies of all American life in the form of contagious pathogens. I think they're more similar than different.To say that because the government is the best source to manage defense of our country therefore must be the best way to manage healthcare ignores the great differences between the needs and norms of the two.
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Big Jake wrote:
Slavery was a disease that threatened to tear our country apart. Everybody agreed that healthcare, if left to private insurance companies, was on track to become the single greatest expense on our budget with no end in sight. Something had to be done. There was no bottom solution to either. If the free market could have solved it alone it would have but the fact is that they had no interest in solving it. That's kinda at the heart of this entire discussion...government MUST make the hard choices in addressing systemic problems that private industry has no interest in addressing. Private industry often has the opposite interest, that being in maintaining the status quo. This idea that they operate for the benefit of 'bottom up' strides towards equality is fantasy.Again though just because a series of government actions were needed to address the ending of slavery doesn't mean that it's the best way to address healthcare.
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Big Jake wrote:
You may or may not realize this, but modern slavery was the end game of an economic system which we would now call unregulated capitalism, or feudalism. If not for the demand for ever-increasing returns on capital investment in an unregulated economy, slavery would have never existed in the modern world. Remove the safeguards and capitalism destroys itself. Even without safeguards, common sense and the laws of physics and thermodynamics clearly state that there is no such thing as limitless economic growth in a world of limited resources. Efforts to maximize profits will be increasingly painful to the common man and result in ever-diminishing returns. It's playing out in slow motion before our eyes right now. Adapt or die.Of course I applaud that Lincoln ended slavery in 1863. However ✂️
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Al Capone' wrote:
Sorry, but that's not true. It actually varied by state. In Texas, you couldn't be declined (or not covered) because of a pre-existing condition as long as you hadn't had a gap in your insurance coverage for more than 60 days.Guys, this was a really good idea. Before, companies offering healthcare could decline you if you had a certain disease/illness/condition.
I'm all for insuring those that are uninsured. However, that's resulted in raising the amount I have to pay for medical care - I'm not talking about premiums either. Those of you without chronic health issues don't understand. (That's not meant as an insult - it's just that you aren't in the same situation.)
Socialized medicine, where I'd have to wait months to see a doctor, have tests, etc, isn't a good alternative either - especially if it didn't allow me to chose the doctors I wanted. I mean, geez, we've already avoided HMOs like the plague.
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I wonder why thousands of Canadians seek medical treatment in the United Sates every year?
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〓 MR71VWBUS 〓 wrote:
I don't understand why all Americans just don't decline Obamacare. If every American just said no, or if every body that is complaining just said no. We wouldn't have this issue. The majority still rules! Even though the corrupt politicians think they have the shit in the bag, all it's going to take is pushing a few of the wrong buttons and they are going to rise a turmoil like they've never seen...... I decline Obamacare. I will not join Obamacare. This stupid "affordable care act" has made my premium go from $348 a month to almost $800 a month. I couldn't afford my health insurance before Obamacare now I can't afford my health insurance AND these motherfuckers are going to fine me for it.
Because universal healthcare ultimately lowers overall healthc. Are expediture
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✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
I dunno, I wonder why 900,000 Americans travel overseas for medical care every year? Most of what you probably think you know about the Canadian healthcare system is lies fed into the corporate media by some right wing think tank. If you're curious about the truth, there's plenty of Canadians playing this game, ask around. The bottom line is that they spend far less than we do, have better outcomes and live longer. People study these kinda things, like really study them instead of just making shit up.I wonder why thousands of Canadians seek medical treatment in the United Sates every year?
http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427
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@Big Jake, for somebody who is not living on your tax dollars and still has married a friend to not be on your tax dollars.......when the time comes, do you propose the death panels accused by republicans of the dems?
What are the young sick from disease to do, after working their lives??Mystery, my friend?? To keep premiums down , instead of feeling relieved of the no lifetime limit cap and no cut off, what should we do?
You guys have no clue how close YOU are to this? Or your mom, or daughter or sis. I was fine, then I wasn't. What will you do then.
I can't comment again. Don't worry. Disease is not racial. Knows no age. It doesn't care how tough you are, or how many guns you have or your political affiliation.
Thank Siri for typing this for me. 😔
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★fnord★ wrote:
I'm not making anything up. This from personal observation in two places. The Mayo Clinic (you may have heard of it), were I did not work, but was there three out five days for a few years. The other was while I worked for Customs on the Canadian border and spoke with Canadians every day. In both instances I heard many Canadians voice disappointment with their vaunted single payer system.✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
I dunno, I wonder why 900,000 Americans travel overseas for medical care every year?I wonder why thousands of Canadians seek medical treatment in the United Sates every year?
http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427
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✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
How dare you suggest people find fault with health care given to them FOR FREE!★fnord★ wrote:
I'm not making anything up. This from personal observation in two places. The Mayo Clinic (you may have heard of it), were I did not work, but was there three out five days for a few years. The other was while I worked for Customs on the Canadian border and spoke with Canadians every day. In both instances I heard many Canadians voice disappointment with their vaunted single payer system.✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
I dunno, I wonder why 900,000 Americans travel overseas for medical care every year?I wonder why thousands of Canadians seek medical treatment in the United Sates every year?
http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427
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Brown🎵Note😲 wrote:
Sure it's free kind of like hydrogen cars don't pollute.✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
How dare you suggest people find fault with health care given to them FOR FREE!★fnord★ wrote:
I'm not making anything up. This from personal observation in two places. The Mayo Clinic (you may have heard of it), were I did not work, but was there three out five days for a few years. The other was while I worked for Customs on the Canadian border and spoke with Canadians every day. In both instances I heard many Canadians voice disappointment with their vaunted single payer system.✯RagnarLoðbrók✯ wrote:
I wonder why thousands of Canadians seek medical treatment in the United Sates every year?
http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427
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It's so strange that people of whatever nationality, while visiting one of the best healthcare facilities in the world, might express that their previous health care experiences paled in comparison. From that you can easily make the leap that all Canadian health care pales in comparison to that in the states. Wait, no you can't. That's not logic, it's anecdotal evidence. The real evidence indicates that Canadians pay far less, have better outcomes and live longer. They are continually ranked in the top ten in health care outcomes while the US is near the bottoms of the first world nations. Do you have evidence that shows otherwise? Other that your gut feeling? Bringing up other first world countries in defense of the US health care system may not be the best way to make your case, FYI. Not one of them would trade places with our bloated profit-driven system.
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I don't know, Sky. I'd gladly pay a higher premium to keep the cost of other things down though. For 2013, our insurance decided they would merge our individual deductibles into one family deductible & the individual out of pockets into one family out of pocket. That was a truly bad idea, especially since they raised the amounts of each. 😒
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Look. I disagree with the notion that a person has a right to healthcare but since the government has effectively given us that right through failure in tort reform and a few other areas and the truth that nobody really wants to see a person die due to the fact they CHOSE not to save $ or purchase insurance then it's up to the government to provide a solution. Otherwise it's an unfounded mandate. Either they choose to reform certain areas of our legal code, etc or take over the provision of healthcare. To provide a true free market system at this point will require people to watch someone without means or insurance die. That's more than your average American will stomach (including myself). So socialized medicine is coming to America at some point. And it will cost more than you think it will. And it will be at a lower quality than you think it will.
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I stand by my original assertion that Obamacare is a useless and idiotic way station on the road. If the country isn't prepared for socialized medicine yet then better to do nothing and leave the current system in place. Some compromises aren't worth having. On the flip side smarter liberals will realize that the net result of Obamacare will be to push us as a country closer to full support of socialized medicine simply as the only way out of that mess. Whether fnord is one of those or simply a true believer in anything presented by the liberal camp in this country I can't tell you. I get a hint from his misrepresentations of our last President but that's just my take.
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A few points to clarify.
Meant unfunded not unfounded
You=me, you, everybody at the end of my first statement above. I'm sure that I've even underestimated the true expense of government run healthcare. -
Big Jake wrote: ✂️nobody really wants to see a person die due to the fact they CHOSE not to save $ or purchase insurance then it's up to the government to provide a solution.
Thousands of people who saved their money and HAD insurance lost everything when their profit-driven insurance company dropped their coverage after bleeding them dry. Two thirds of all bankruptcies in the US were due to a medical emergency. Millions of responsible adults couldn't even get insurance due to health problems beyond their control. Health insurance companies don't make money by approving claims, they do it by denying them. The way we used to allow them to operate was truly a disgrace and borderline criminal, now slightly less so. No need to worry about the dreaded socialized medicine. It'll never happen as long as there's an army of willfully misinformed people like you shilling for the powerful interests while blaming the weakest among us for our problems.
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