Israel VS Hamas
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It honestly disturbs me that this kind of ignorant thinking is needlessly prolonging the suffering on both sides.
This concept of equal response... "They are only throwing rocks, and you are shooting rubber BULLETS?!? That's not fair!"
No more of that, please. If the elected leaders of Ireland started raining hundreds of rockets into London, for a decade no less, you know what would happen.
The quickest way to end the conflict: stop pulling punches. No more restraint. The Cold War is over. Iraq is gone. Afghanistan is gone. Iran is next. Balance in the region is long gone. Do what must be done.
As soon as they give up all hope, they can begin trying to catch up to the rest of the civilized world.
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See that's your definition of civilized, I don't consider that civilized. I'd much rather be supporting a movement that will bring us to a higher understanding. War is not inherently human, over coming obstacles is. We don't need to kill people to coexist, we need them to educate themselves and come to the same conclusion as me. It's not as big a leap as you may think.
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✰MAΥHΞΜ✰ wrote:
Yeah... The last 2 million years of examples are just wrong. We need a new human nature.See that's your definition of civilized, I don't consider that civilized. I'd much rather be supporting a movement that will bring us to a higher understanding. War is not inherently human, over coming obstacles is. We don't need to kill people to coexist, we need them to educate themselves and come to the same conclusion as me. It's not as big a leap as you may think.
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Say, that reminds me...
Which of these two groups have self-educated?
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Brown🎵Note😲 wrote:
👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆It honestly disturbs me that this kind of ignorant thinking is needlessly prolonging the suffering on both sides.
This concept of equal response... "They are only throwing rocks, and you are shooting rubber BULLETS?!? That's not fair!"
No more of that, please. If the elected leaders of Ireland started raining hundreds of rockets into London, for a decade no less, you know what would happen.
The quickest way to end the conflict: stop pulling punches. No more restraint. The Cold War is over. Iraq is gone. Afghanistan is gone. Iran is next. Balance in the region is long gone. Do what must be done.
As soon as they give up all hope, they can begin trying to catch up to the rest of the civilized world.
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Brown🎵Note😲 wrote:
Let's look at a parallel. The American Civil War. Grant and Sherman had one goal: to end the war as quickly as possible, and with as few deaths as possible.
How did they do this? Shock and awe kinda stuff. Burn cities, terrorize civilians, and generally devastate the South while regular armies fought to the North. The Southern soldiers were broken by news of their homes burned and their families tormented, and a hundred thousand deserted.
End conflict with brutality? This is not a contradiction. Sherman said: "The more cruelty we inflict, the sooner this will end."
I see this painful, long, drawn out suffering over there which was artificially created in part by US foreign policy, and I wish for it to end. Israel has taken land that they claim belongs to them. End the suffering with some cruelty.
☝☝☝☝☝☝☝☝☝☝☝☝☝
What he said👏👏👏👏👏 -
Brown🎵Note😲 wrote:
What does that mean? 2 million years? Whats been an example for 2 million years? War has been around for 10,000 years, how did we get along before that? 10,000 years, meaning war is not human nature.✰MAΥHΞΜ✰ wrote:
Yeah... The last 2 million years of examples are just wrong. We need a new human nature.See that's your definition of civilized, I don't consider that civilized. I'd much rather be supporting a movement that will bring us to a higher understanding. War is not inherently human, over coming obstacles is. We don't need to kill people to coexist, we need them to educate themselves and come to the same conclusion as me. It's not as big a leap as you may think.
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All right, I see I have a lot of ground to cover here.
The human animal was not miraculously peaceful earlier than 10,000 years ago.
What evidence do you have that conflict is not human nature? Overwhelmingly throughout history and before, violent conflict has been a key means to settle disputes, claim or protect territory, secure resources, and spread culture, knowledge, and progress.
You are being all illuminary in a human world that has been almost ENTIRELY shaped by violence and domination.
What philosopher, scholar, or 5th grader won't say the same thing?
We are no smarter than the first humans. Remember that. The ancient Greeks invented our math. Our dominant philosophies were chiseled on stone. We are not better than the Roman Empire.
How is it that you have come up with a solution to end all war? Progressives are so self-important sometimes.
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To understand the war in the Middle East watch this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4&sns=em
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👿💋A͜ʟωɑץʂ ₲💋👿 wrote:
To understand the war in the Middle East watch this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4&sns=em
A very nice video.
All people have to do is spend a little bit of time researching this issue, use their brains, and realize that the only reason this conflict even exists right now is because Israel, under pressure from the US and the UN, continually gives the peace process yet another chance. They give up land, rights, and security to make peace with these barbarian bastards surrounding them. And EVERY TIME, they are double crossed.
Israel is a modern, liberal, sophisticated state. Their women are free. Their advancements in science, medicine, technology, and agriculture are wonderful. They want peace.
The last way to have peace has been shown. Force the Arabs to lay down their arms in the only way they will respect. Through domination. Like they are used to by their own brutal theocratic states.
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It's strange that liberal progressives always seem to back the Arabs against Israel.
Israel: Liberal, democratic socialist state. Modern human rights standards even surpassing England or the US, religious freedom, wants peace, prosperity, and even desegregation.
Islamic States: Theocratic regimes. Poor religious freedom, You can be arrested for talking about alternate religions or atheism if they believe you are "converting" others. Homosexuality is a capital offense. Women are set back 500 years, are the property of men, and can be killed for having an affair.
And progressives normally back the right-wing regressives. Coincidence? I think not. They really are that clueless.
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I don't support either side, or war. You have the same imperialist view as the other side, the same imperialist view that has kept mankind at compition with itself over fake lines, promoting compition amongst mankind. Over what? Stupid people can't solve problems with their brain. War is not a solution to any battle in my view, unless you're an arms manufacturer who has no sense of morals. We are the ultimate species, you say we havent gotten smarter? How can you justify that. Wikipedia has more knowledge than the entire earth did 1000 years ago. With global access to "free" knowledge, the bar of humanity has been raised, it just takes humanity to take a huge moral shift.
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This is difficult because even basic things need to be explained to you. Yes, it's true that we are no smarter than the ancient Greeks. Your brain is the same as those 10,000 year old brains you mentioned earlier.
The fact that you don't get that fits in with your idea that war serves no practical purpose in modern times. You think you are more intelligent now than the brutal idiots that came before you.
We aren't.
Do something smart, like invent trigonometry, or build a microchip. I bet you can't. Aren't you smarter than people in 1945 or even 600 BCE?
War is not stupid. It's necessary, and often it benefits human kind. If you can't understand what I've been saying here, then maybe you need another 500 years to become "smarter".
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👿💋A͜ʟωɑץʂ ₲💋👿 wrote:
Prager University, holy shit that's funny! Dennis Prager is what Rush Limbaugh leaves in a 7-11 crapper after scarfing down an enchilada platter he found in a dumpster.To understand the war in the Middle East watch this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4&sns=em
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haha our brains don't have to get bigger for us to get smarter, that's just stupid. You can't see that I'm not arguing any of your facts? I am clearly only stating that we must move past war to move forward, and that we have the resources to do so. Nothing productive will come out of your reasoning, just repeating history and clinging on to old ways.
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★fnord★ wrote:
Kinda true.... But hey. He's got a point in that one.👿💋A͜ʟωɑץʂ ₲💋👿 wrote:
Prager University, holy shit that's funny! Dennis Prager is what Rush Limbaugh leaves in a 7-11 crapper after scarfing down an enchilada platter he found in a dumpster.To understand the war in the Middle East watch this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4&sns=em
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✰MAΥHΞΜ✰ wrote:
"Old ways", lol. If the Romans had maintained their domination over Europe, the dark ages would never have happened.✂...I am clearly only stating that we must move past war to move forward, and that we have the resources to do so. Nothing productive will come out of your reasoning, just repeating history and clinging on to old ways.
War is good, usually. The collapse of the Roman Empire plunged Europe into a dark age because the barbarians won. That's a rare thing. Normally, it's the more advanced side that wins.
(It's not that the barbarians "won", they just took over after the collapse.)
Advanced warrior societies destroy backwards, primitive, aggressive Koran thumping regimes and force those societies to become stable and more advanced, so they can be peaceful and prosper. Survival of the fittest. Natural selection.
🎵All we are say-ing... Is give Darwin a chance...🎵
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Never forget the terrible suffering of people. They are not pegs on a board game. So many innocents suffer.War is a dreadful thing.
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Yup I see the effectiveness of war, I just don't see how human kind benifits from it. The only war I'm fighting for is rationalism, and truth shall prevail. Might be hard for you to see under such an oppresive militaristic regime. It's coming, slowly but surely.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one,
I hope someday you'll join us.🎶 -
I'll admit I tried to watch that video without bias, but really it's a whitewash of historical events painting Israel as being systematically oppressed by the Arab states despite their profound generosity. To support this claim, Prager points to Israel giving up the Sinai penisula to Egypt while neglecting to mention that they had taken that land by force months earlier. You and I both know that certain factions within Israel have simply never been satisfied with the borders originally drawn by the UN and even the post armistice agreements. They are systematically trying to take land that's not theirs. Not to excuse some of the Arab player's behavior, but people who say things like "Israel has a right to defend itself" are clearly only seeing half the picture. I don't claim to have a solution, but I do know that if those tanks cross into Gaza it will not happen inside a vacuum and it will not be as decisive or lasting of a "solution" as portrayed here.
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For the record Brown, I still think you're using hyperbole for comedic effect. Beating the crap out of that liberal strawman yesterday was hilarious, keep em coming, lol!
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★fnord★ wrote:
It's fun, isn't it?For the record Brown, I still think you're using hyperbole for comedic effect. Beating the crap out of that liberal strawman yesterday was hilarious, keep em coming, lol!
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As for Sinai, the land was taken as a defensive buffer after an attack by Egypt. Israel won that war. (Not unlike the Golan.) Israel won, but rather than continue hostilities, they gave the land back as a peace offering. Not because they were forced to, but in an act of good faith.
They have left Gaza. They have tried to re-establish the West Bank. They are withdrawing in the north.
What have the Arabs done for peace? Periodically they stop attacking a more powerful Israel to get them to give up more land. Oh, the poor oppressed Arabs.
End the conflict. END THE SUFFERING. Whip their asses into submission. It's been done before to them, and it has worked. (England, nod nod, wink wink..)
Really... If this was Turfwars, how would it play out?
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Seems like Israel is in the early stages of shock and awe. So what now, send ground forces into Gaza? What next? House to house fighting against an embedded enemy with the support of the people using guerilla tactics? Hope that Egypt doesn't get involved. REALLY hope that no one else in the region gets any bright ideas while you're bogged down in Gaza.
Or option B: Go in guns blazing with heavy civilian casualties and alienate the world community and maybe even the US? No one would remember the rockets into Tel Aviv, only Israel's brutal response. It would only be a matter of time before they would be isolated and weakened to the point of collapse or invasion. I'm just not seeing an upside for Israel here. This is asymmetrical warfare married with modern technology, the old rules of war no longer apply. That's where the morbid humor lies for me, Israel aggressively employing naked brutality to try to secure peace could spell the end of Israel, thus securing peace...for their ememies. -
✰MAΥHΞΜ✰ wrote:
I never said one side was victim. Many countries want Israel gone and they are doing what they can to stay on the map. They got fed up with the rockets they are hitting back unstead of sitting there. Israel won't back down and I admire that. If your beliefs are that israel is filled with terrorists then your mistaken.Leech, you clearly can't grasp this because you believe this is a one sided conflict, one side being the aggressor one side being the victim. Which is what you have been told to believe, not what you have deduced from your own logical and rationale thinking and research. This is a war my friend, not just a rag tag team of terrorists attacking innocents.
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It all depends on how their supporters will react, doesn't it?
In any case, no offense to our Air Force friends, but Israel has the finest pilots in the world. Their training is second to none. I see no evidence that suggests that an all-out Islamic attack would end any differently than it has in the previous two. They would be repulsed yet again, humiliated, and their military equipment mostly destroyed AGAIN.
And that's without aid from their ally the United States.
The attacking governments would have to be very concerned that Israel might not be prepared to back down afterward, yet again.
Let's pretend for a moment that these Islamic states DO prevail in overrunning Israel. Hope they do not, because Israel will have no further option than to use their nuclear capability.
The Arabs know this. They do not want this outcome. I'm not worried about it.
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Not only will the Arabs fear nuclear retaliation, so will the United States. As it happened before, the United States will provide conventional aide to Israel to prevent the use of nuclear weapons every time.
In my opinion, Israel is not going anywhere, and it is only their amazing restraint and cooperation that prevents them from securing their borders as the Soviets did after world war 2. Surrounding Arab states would be overrun, dominated, and peace through strength would be achieved at the cost of Arab "freedom".
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Brown🎵Note😲 wrote:
How would this not result in a return to the status quo a few years later as it always has? Earlier you alluded to the possibility of a more permanent solution resulting in lasting peace. "Whip their asses into submission." What exactly would that entail in your mind? Seems to me that every new iteration of Palestinian resistance becomes politically stronger and more of a problem for Israel. How would this Israeli offensive not be yet another recruiting tool for the next, more potent version of Hamas of 5-10 years from now? -
Glad I made a good thread. Just an off the cuff thread and first post has hit 5 pages. Glad for the most part it's been a civil debate 👍👍👍👍👍👍
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No option than to use nuclear weapons?
God you are full of shit, you spent to much time in a tube under water.I don't think you know any more about the situation than what is fed to you by fox news.
Your championing violence is pathetic and shows how short sighted you are, study the evolution of human culture, war was never and issue before people started makeing claims to land ownership, invented borders and nations, we are not violent by nature, we are a reasonable race run by greedy unreasonable people, people weak minded folk like you put into power, your conditioned to the point where you lack the ability to think for yourself so you turn to those with the biggest gun to protect you, no matter what the cost to your moral freedom.
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