National day of discussion: the gun issue in America
Forums › General Discussion › National day of discussion: the gun issue in America-
mojopilot wrote:
Schools administrators and teachers with no security training should take the initiative in coming up with a security plan, not the public servants we pay to do exactly that type of thing (the police)? Also, the article says an armed, sworn officer should have a constant presence at schools, not simply be a responder. You seem to be trying to twist your own link into something it's not. What are you getting at?That is what the article says, but I don't have to agree with it in its entirety. I think it should be lead by the individual schools, malls, etc. with collaboration from local law enforcement. Who knows the school, or where ever this concept is to be applied better, the staff or the cops? Once whatever plan is in place the cops do what they do best and respond; just as firefighters do.
I think those who can should take the initiative, and not rely on the police to set up a plan for them.
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★Λubergine★ wrote:
I do agree that a full response is too late, absolutely. But if the school (just taking an example) has a good threat prevention plan In place, combined with an officer or two (schools always had police when I was in school, that was a good neighborhood too) and teachers and students that know how to react, you have mitigated much of the problem resulting from the time it takes to get a full fledged police response.mojopilot wrote:
Response is too late. If you want schools to be safe, you can't have the school be in charge of security. Their job is to teach. Police respond to crimes. Security prevents.I think those who can should take the initiative, and not rely on the police to set up a plan for them.
It's not a perfect solution, there never will be. But this is an application of an existing system that has proven itself.
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mojopilot wrote:
There is a perfect solution. Solution: fence in the schools. Put an armed guard at the only entrance. Allow no weapons inside. Leave the teachers to teach, the students to learn, and the security teams to secure.★Λubergine★ wrote:
I do agree that a full response is too late, absolutely. But if the school (just taking an example) has a good threat prevention plan In place, combined with an officer or two (schools always had police when I was in school, that was a good neighborhood too) and teachers and students that know how to react, you have mitigated much of the problem resulting from the time it takes to get a full fledged police response.mojopilot wrote:
It's not a perfect solution, there never will be. But this is an application of an existing system that has proven itself.
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I just really don't want my 4 year old to think about what she is going to do if someone shows up shooting everyone. She doesn't even know what that means. It's a little much to ask the students and teachers to focus on how to survive a massacre. Might as well not even bother with school. Security personnel are trained to think about that sort of thing, let them do it.
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Here's a thought....
What if teachers were properly trained and carried guns? -
Dirty Balls wrote:
Is anything I post showing up?Here's a thought....
What if teachers were properly trained and carried guns? -
It doesn't have to be called a mass murder drill. I had fire, earthquake and tornado drills as a kid, all of those are scary to a kid. Yet I and my school district didn't think it was too much to ask everyone to learn how to handle those disasters. So we add a new type of drill, give it an ambiguous name prepare in ways that the experts have determined is best. I get not wanting to have your kid face reality, but I had to face the reality that my school could be blown by a tornado (and almost was) and I could die. It's Mother Nature vs a guy with a gun but dead is dead.
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mojopilot wrote:
Oh i thought you were suggesting the teachers should fight back. Threat prevention plan and whatnot. Evacuation drills are fine, they do that anyways. Pretty sure the response would be the same for tornados, so nothing new there. Plus, now you are suggesting experts determine what's best, instead of school officials and teachers, like you said before.It doesn't have to be called a mass murder drill. I had fire, earthquake and tornado drills as a kid, all of those are scary to a kid. Yet I and my school district didn't think it was too much to ask everyone to learn how to handle those disasters. So we add a new type of drill, give it an ambiguous name prepare in ways that the experts have determined is best. I get not wanting to have your kid face reality, but I had to face the reality that my school could be blown by a tornado (and almost was) and I could die. It's Mother Nature vs a guy with a gun but dead is dead.
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@fnord there may not be a tyrannical government right now but look back at the axis powers in ww2. Most people in their countries wanted them until they realized what they really were doing(communist movement in Russia 1916ish? And the nazi movement in Germany just before ww2 are great examples)
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⚡🏀ʟєցi†ßɑʟʟєʀ🏀⚡ wrote:
The communist party that took control of the soviet union by violently murdering the tsar and his family was not a tyrannical government, but one meant to take the place of a tyrannical government. Look how well that turned out. Oh, and they were allies, btw.@fnord there may not be a tyrannical government right now but look back at the axis powers in ww2. Most people in their countries wanted them until they realized what they really were doing(communist movement in Russia 1916ish? And the nazi movement in Germany just before ww2 are great examples)
The nazi party took control and transformed the country from a poor and desolate place (due to reparations from ww1) to a powerful and prosperous state. They were NEEDED. Sure, they did some mean stuff later. But before the nazis took over inflation was at several hundred thousand percent and people couldn't afford bread.
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★Λubergine★ wrote:
I'm trying not to get sidetracked here, but "sure they did some mean stuff later" is a drastic understatement. 😳⚡🏀ʟєցi†ßɑʟʟєʀ🏀⚡ wrote:
The communist party that took control of the soviet union by violently murdering the tsar and his family was not a tyrannical government, but one meant to take the place of a tyrannical government. Look how well that turned out. Oh, and they were allies, btw.@fnord ✂
The nazi party took control and transformed the country from a poor and desolate place (due to reparations from ww1) to a powerful and prosperous state. They were NEEDED. Sure, they did some mean stuff later. But before the nazis took over inflation was at several hundred thousand percent and people couldn't afford bread.
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Midgard wrote:
I also noticed that it is generally the criminals shooting criminals now in Australia. Less innocent passer bys being caught in the crossfire.A non American (australian)point of view and question.
We had the port Arthur masacure were a arguable insane person like the school shooting killed many inosent people. The govt banned automatic and all military stile weapons and had a buy back of all licensed guns in the catogary. It didn't stop gun crime but it DID massively reduce the rate as guns had to be in a safe plus a Lot of other conditions, it was argued it would remove the impulse and crimes of passion and it did. we still have shootings but not that scale, criminals will allways get guns you can't stop that but you can slow or stop an insane person picking up a automatic rifle in a fit of depression or rage and exacting there price. Own weapons by all means but why do you need military automatic weapons? -
I said before its a collaboration. To apply it to the tornado drill experts say go to a centralized wall. Which wall is that? That's up to the people at the school to decide. If the experts say the best way to prepare for an invasion is to _____, it's the schools decision as to how to adapt an apply that. All the while working with local law enforcement to come up with a mutual plans.
All this, if I ran the world, would be at the direction of the school or school district, taking advice from and working with external resources.
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★Λubergine★ wrote:
These guys always have the jump. In real life this means that no matter how prepped you are, you are at the severe disadvantage. We have this hero mentality going on that just doesn't correlate with real life events. Anyone that has been in these real life situations can tell you this. Columbine is a perfect example of this with the gun fight with the armed guard at the beginning of it. Armed guard missed and stay with the wounded at the entrance.mojopilot wrote:
That is what the article says, but I don't have to agree with it in its entirety. I think it should be lead by the individual schools, malls, etc. with collaboration from local law enforcement. Who knows the school, or where ever this concept is to be applied better, the staff or the cops? Once whatever plan is in place the cops do what they do best and respond; just as firefighters do.
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★Λubergine★ wrote:
Did u just say the nazi's were needed😨 is it just me or is that a little scary...? And they did not make it better! How can u defend hitler?!? Also how can u say communism in Russia worked? Stalin was worse than hitler! And everyone in Russia was starving and they were still starving until they collapsed after the Cold War. (My Russian friend's parents talked about it with my parents, we were neighbors)⚡🏀ʟєցi†ßɑʟʟєʀ🏀⚡ wrote:
✂Look how well that turned out. Oh, and they were allies, btw.✂
The nazi party took control and transformed the country from a poor and desolate place (due to reparations from ww1) to a powerful and prosperous state. They were NEEDED. Sure, they did some mean stuff later. But before the nazis took over inflation was at several hundred thousand percent and people couldn't afford bread.
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Try to picture it. Armed guard with handgun, perps with assault weapons. Who always wins the fight? It's even likely that the perp will win the fight if they both have assault rifles because the perp has the element of surprise. It's just that simple.
So to at least even the playing field per weapon we need an armed swat member at every school entrance. That's 100,000 armed guards at public schools alone. Not including pre-k and private sector schools.
Now with conservatives always pounding the pavement about defunding our cops/firemen/all social nets/insurance how do we expect to pay for this? Gotta pay for it all the time, not just when something happens. This band-aid is getting pretty expensive!
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★Λddi★ wrote:
True. Even in a combat zone, when you are expecting to get shot at, you are at a disadvantage on security. You'd need to find 100,000 or more people willing to spend their days shitting their pants (figuratively). And then find a bunch of money we don't even have to pay for all of them. OR just take away semi-automatic rifles. People will say that handguns can do just as much damage, but i've trained with both. I can shoot a moving target at about 15-25 yds with a handgun, 9 times before reloading. Or I can shoot a moving target at about 75-100 yards with a rifle, 30 times before reloading. There is no reason for a civilian to have the same weapon as our army. -
Sadly, I don't think there is a solution.
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⚡🏀ʟєցi†ßɑʟʟєʀ🏀⚡ wrote:
I don't think you quite understood what i said.★Λubergine★ wrote:
Did u just say the nazi's were needed😨 is it just me or is that a little scary...? And they did not make it better! How can u defend hitler?!? Also how can u say communism in Russia worked? Stalin was worse than hitler! And everyone in Russia was starving and they were still starving until they collapsed after the Cold War. (My Russian friend's parents talked about it with my parents, we were neighbors)⚡🏀ʟєցi†ßɑʟʟєʀ🏀⚡ wrote:
The nazi party took control and transformed the country from a poor and desolate place (due to reparations from ww1) to a powerful and prosperous state. They were NEEDED. Sure, they did some mean stuff later. But before the nazis took over inflation was at several hundred thousand percent and people couldn't afford bread.
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★Λubergine★ wrote:
Amen.★Λddi★ wrote:
True. Even in a combat zone, when you are expecting to get shot at, you are at a disadvantage on security. You'd need to find 100,000 or more people willing to spend their days shitting their pants (figuratively). And then find a bunch .✂✂Look at those dead babies faces. Read their stories. Look at your own babies faces because that could just as easily be your child and tell me again you need an assault rifle for sport.
Anyways, obviously it will cost less to rid of them than to arm against them. I think modt of us can agree that we dont want our children to have to go to school in a fortress. And there are plenty of answers. It's unacceptable for us to continue to stick our heads in the sand. We are meant to strive to be better and move forward, not stand still in indecision like a bunch of cowards.
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★Λubergine★ wrote:
Actually I did and I think you are drunk. go home aubergin😁. You know something is wrong when someone defends hitler.⚡🏀ʟєցi†ßɑʟʟєʀ🏀⚡ wrote:
I don't think you quite understood what i said.★Λubergine★ wrote:
✂⚡🏀ʟєցi†ßɑʟʟєʀ🏀⚡ wrote:
The nazi party took control and transformed the country from a poor and desolate place (due to reparations from ww1) to a powerful and prosperous state. They were NEEDED. Sure, they did some mean stuff later. But before the nazis took over inflation was at several hundred thousand percent and people couldn't afford bread.
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★Λddi★ wrote:
There is NOTHING on this planet worth the lives of my children. If I thought for a second that gun control laws would end gun violence I would trade mine all in in a second. The problem is that very few gun laws work. Would you feel comfortable traveling in Mexico right now. They have very strong gun laws & lots of gun violence. There are other countries with different results, but they had fewer guns to start off with.★Λubergine★ wrote:
Amen.★Λddi★ wrote:
True. Even in a combat zone, when you are expecting to get shot at, you are at a disadvantage on security. .✂✂Look at those dead babies faces. Read their stories. Look at your own babies faces because that could just as easily be your child and tell me again you need an assault rifle for sport.
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